Overall, good points. But I wish you would acknowledge what's so wrong with this kol koreh.
"Because a Yeshiva is a BM, a place of learning full-time - not getting involved in the idea of outlets etc."
There are two ways to critique this:
1. Any chacham recognizes the application of ביטולה זו היא קיומה. Outlets are essential to prevent burnout and to maintain a healthy life balance among many other things. Denying the needs of bachurim and their families for outlets is blind to reality and the thought that somehow a BM ought to be blind to reality and impose a way of life that is purely aspirational and not realistic is actually a surefire way to undermine their success actually living according to the Torah, including learning to be a healthy parent and husband who can raise a family according to the derech hatorah, which - I hope we agree - is FAR more fundamental than a little more super-advanced lomdus.
2. More importantly, there is a distinction all these posts have implicitly acknowledged between an absolutist and ask encompassing vision of right and wrong coming from the top down - even for the limited Klal it may be addressed to - and guidance that individuals can use to apply to their own situations and families. This kol koreh to me, with all due respect to those who signed it, is a classic failure in chinuch. It should have raised the concerns ("grave concerns" is too severe, leaving no room for individual application) that people should be careful with it, even very careful, and that while some parents may find it appropriate for some or all their children, it should not be accepted as purely kosher and that people should consult their rabbanim for more guidance. Also, this will be a bombshell that cannot work for too many people and will only alienate them from the roshei yeshiva who simply set standards too high for their whole Klal to allow for any individualism. This kind of kol koreh - even for it's intended audience - is much responsible for the problem as anything and, in my view, cannot be explained away.
With regards to your second point, I agree with those issues 100%. I think they are going about it wrong; they should know the way they are perceived and act accordingly. I think I originally wrote that but took it out because it distracted from the flow.
As for your first point (sorry for going out of order, I'm a shtickel golem;), I'm not sure if you misread my words. I didn't mean there shouldn't be outlets, I just meant I'm not getting involved in that specific point right now. Part of using sechel includes outlets. It includes being *normal* hand *healthy*.
I don't get why anyone would think that there isn't room for Klal work today.
I think there is more room for Klal work than any time in the last 60 odd years. I feel like our community is standing at a crossroads in many ways as it shifts from a tiny minority to transitioning to a majority colture (in Israel and even in NY and NJ) and many major Klal issues will need to be tackled (the shiduch crisis and parnasa (housin/tuition) crisis are 2 obvious examples.
I think the truth is that we have been conditioned (for a a good reason, perhaps,but that s its own discussion) NOT to take our own initiative. Yet, if you look at those who did much for Klal Yisroel postwar it was very much their own drive and initiative pushing them.
I agree, there is tons of room for klal work! Did I say anything to contradict that? I just think places like Lakewood are too big and everyone is just doing their own thing - "alone together" - and there is no klal in the way a klal needs to be. A klal is where there is a smaller structure that fits within a larger structure. A yachid (his mind runs the place), a family (the parents run the place), a community (with a Rav seeing the big picture), a larger community (gedolim). That's my point.
I would actually read you article backward, that the reason our 'system' deemphasizes klal work is because family comes first, something I strongly agree with, especially as a pronatalist.
I'm not sure we're talking to each other. There is a major problem in places like Lakewood where (a) everyone is "alone together" and (b) people are using the system and ignoring their immediate responsibilities. That is a huge and unhealthy problem, which comes from being so large, or "klalified"
>There is a major problem in places like Lakewood where (a) everyone is "alone together" and (b) people are using the system and ignoring their immediate responsibilities.
Yes, and I think it has a lot to do with the fact that we strongly discourage initiative.
In fact, I think the very fact that almost everyone lives in Lakewood (or large communities in NY and NJ) is perhaps the greatest contributor to the problem, and this too is rooted in the lack of initiative.
"Reb Avigdor's main point, if I'm understanding correctly, is that there isn't so much room anymore for the major klal work and large-scale building our parents and grandparents needed."
Overall, good points. But I wish you would acknowledge what's so wrong with this kol koreh.
"Because a Yeshiva is a BM, a place of learning full-time - not getting involved in the idea of outlets etc."
There are two ways to critique this:
1. Any chacham recognizes the application of ביטולה זו היא קיומה. Outlets are essential to prevent burnout and to maintain a healthy life balance among many other things. Denying the needs of bachurim and their families for outlets is blind to reality and the thought that somehow a BM ought to be blind to reality and impose a way of life that is purely aspirational and not realistic is actually a surefire way to undermine their success actually living according to the Torah, including learning to be a healthy parent and husband who can raise a family according to the derech hatorah, which - I hope we agree - is FAR more fundamental than a little more super-advanced lomdus.
2. More importantly, there is a distinction all these posts have implicitly acknowledged between an absolutist and ask encompassing vision of right and wrong coming from the top down - even for the limited Klal it may be addressed to - and guidance that individuals can use to apply to their own situations and families. This kol koreh to me, with all due respect to those who signed it, is a classic failure in chinuch. It should have raised the concerns ("grave concerns" is too severe, leaving no room for individual application) that people should be careful with it, even very careful, and that while some parents may find it appropriate for some or all their children, it should not be accepted as purely kosher and that people should consult their rabbanim for more guidance. Also, this will be a bombshell that cannot work for too many people and will only alienate them from the roshei yeshiva who simply set standards too high for their whole Klal to allow for any individualism. This kind of kol koreh - even for it's intended audience - is much responsible for the problem as anything and, in my view, cannot be explained away.
With regards to your second point, I agree with those issues 100%. I think they are going about it wrong; they should know the way they are perceived and act accordingly. I think I originally wrote that but took it out because it distracted from the flow.
As for your first point (sorry for going out of order, I'm a shtickel golem;), I'm not sure if you misread my words. I didn't mean there shouldn't be outlets, I just meant I'm not getting involved in that specific point right now. Part of using sechel includes outlets. It includes being *normal* hand *healthy*.
I don't get why anyone would think that there isn't room for Klal work today.
I think there is more room for Klal work than any time in the last 60 odd years. I feel like our community is standing at a crossroads in many ways as it shifts from a tiny minority to transitioning to a majority colture (in Israel and even in NY and NJ) and many major Klal issues will need to be tackled (the shiduch crisis and parnasa (housin/tuition) crisis are 2 obvious examples.
I think the truth is that we have been conditioned (for a a good reason, perhaps,but that s its own discussion) NOT to take our own initiative. Yet, if you look at those who did much for Klal Yisroel postwar it was very much their own drive and initiative pushing them.
I agree, there is tons of room for klal work! Did I say anything to contradict that? I just think places like Lakewood are too big and everyone is just doing their own thing - "alone together" - and there is no klal in the way a klal needs to be. A klal is where there is a smaller structure that fits within a larger structure. A yachid (his mind runs the place), a family (the parents run the place), a community (with a Rav seeing the big picture), a larger community (gedolim). That's my point.
I would actually read you article backward, that the reason our 'system' deemphasizes klal work is because family comes first, something I strongly agree with, especially as a pronatalist.
I'm not sure we're talking to each other. There is a major problem in places like Lakewood where (a) everyone is "alone together" and (b) people are using the system and ignoring their immediate responsibilities. That is a huge and unhealthy problem, which comes from being so large, or "klalified"
>I'm not sure we're talking to each other.
I guess so.
>There is a major problem in places like Lakewood where (a) everyone is "alone together" and (b) people are using the system and ignoring their immediate responsibilities.
Yes, and I think it has a lot to do with the fact that we strongly discourage initiative.
In fact, I think the very fact that almost everyone lives in Lakewood (or large communities in NY and NJ) is perhaps the greatest contributor to the problem, and this too is rooted in the lack of initiative.
"Reb Avigdor's main point, if I'm understanding correctly, is that there isn't so much room anymore for the major klal work and large-scale building our parents and grandparents needed."
Great post - politically, this is conservatism 101!